How long will a dead ash tree stand
How long is it safe to leave a dead ash standing after it has (basically) no leaves left?
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- Thread starter reverence4wood
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reverence4wood
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- #1
Hi. We have an ash (~57" circumference trunk both at ground level and 5') in the yard of our home that we bought last summer. It's pretty much dead- had only very few leaves on only some limited branches last year, I can only see one area with a couple of small branches with any buds this spring, and the woodpeckers have had a hay day pecking small holes everywhere, presumably to get at the EAB.
I don't know if it looked healthy two years ago / when it started to show signs of its upcoming demise. The bark on the trunk is solidly intact to at least 8 feet, then you can see light strips where the outer-most layer of the thick bark has started to be shed, and in some small spots on upper branches all the bark is starting to fall off.
It basically needs to be felled, but we're wondering if it can wait 8-9 months until next winter. Is it safe to leave it standing until then, or is it likely to fall before?
We can't get the help we need to take it down for maybe another month, and are running out of time to seed the area that it will have to be felled onto (we had to put a septic system in, and are left with a hillside of sand that we want to curb erosion on sooner than later. )
If it did happen to fall naturally with its lean in the meantime, it would most likely fall into the open area that we will eventually fell in into. The trunk splits into two about 7 feet up and it's too far away to hit the house or any infrastructure in the direction of the lean of the main part of the tree.
This seems pretty unlikely (to my completely experienced eyes!), but the only way it could hit anything would be if a limb on the secondary/smaller part of the tree broke off about 25 feet up: the ends of those branches could possibly reach far enough to hit the infrastructure lines on the side of the tree away from the house. I can see that the bark is more compromised up there.
How likely is it that the tree would loose a limb from that high up at this stage of its death? Would it be safe to leave it standing another 8-9 months until next winter?
Thanks very much!!! I can post pictures later once the rain stops, if anyone is interested.
smithfieldrifles
ArboristSite Lurker
- #2
Usually the limbs will fall long before the tree does, I had an oak with the same situation. There was zero bark left and it looked like swiss cheese from woodpeckers. It was in this condition for approx. 2yrs before the roots were so weak that it fell on its own one windy day last fall, but the limbs did start coming down on their own long before that. Its tough to give a time frame but if most of the tree had shed bark already the limbs will slowly begin falling over the next few seasons. I do think you probably have some time before the tree falls though.
Jim Timber
1/4 bubble off
- #3
I'd also agree you have some time yet. Ash is a very strong wood so even if it was completely dead for 2 years it won't pose an imminent threat without some compromising factor (excessive woodpecker, bug, or fungal decay).
If it was one of the species that are known for rotting to the core within months of death (like birch or aspen), things would be different. Since it's ash, you'll be fine waiting until the ground is hard. As it decays, being under it becomes more risky and it's not something I'd intentionally put off any longer than necessary; but it's certainly not urgent either.
I had a black ash dead-as-can-be spar (nothing left of the crown) that was still solid wood at 12" above the standing water line in my swamp. The power company knocked it over - I never would've bothered cutting it. I don't know what's left of the roots (no desire to grind it out either), but I don't think that log would've fallen over any time soon based on the wind it's handled. The branches have all been gone for years.
Mustang71
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #4
I have an ash tree that has had no bark for 2 years now still waiting for it to fall down. I may end up cutting it if it doesn't fall by winter. It has no branches just a tall stick sitting in wet lands.
ATH
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #5
You can't compare EAB-killed trees to other trees...trust me, I'm in NW Ohio we have been seeing this bug for almost 15 years now.
Having said that, I'd tell you as soon as the bark is loose enough to start falling off it is "fair game". Might uproot. Might snap at the base. Might snap half way up.
You also need to be aware that they don't behave like "normal" trees when being felled. I had a big one to 90 degrees to the hinge once. Fortunately there wasn't anything over there. The sooner it is removed, the safer.
Oldmaple
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #6
They don't last as long as you would think. I don't like to climb them after they've died, too brittle. Your window would be fine, would probably shed branches before tipping at the base. Smaller ones commonly tip at the base, especially if growing in a wet area.
Marine5068
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #7
reverence4wood said:
Hi.
We have an ash (~57" circumference trunk both at ground level and 5') in the yard of our home that we bought last summer. It's pretty much dead- had only very few leaves on only some limited branches last year, I can only see one area with a couple of small branches with any buds this spring, and the woodpeckers have had a hay day pecking small holes everywhere, presumably to get at the EAB.
I don't know if it looked healthy two years ago / when it started to show signs of its upcoming demise. The bark on the trunk is solidly intact to at least 8 feet, then you can see light strips where the outer-most layer of the thick bark has started to be shed, and in some small spots on upper branches all the bark is starting to fall off.
It basically needs to be felled, but we're wondering if it can wait 8-9 months until next winter. Is it safe to leave it standing until then, or is it likely to fall before?
We can't get the help we need to take it down for maybe another month, and are running out of time to seed the area that it will have to be felled onto (we had to put a septic system in, and are left with a hillside of sand that we want to curb erosion on sooner than later.
)
If it did happen to fall naturally with its lean in the meantime, it would most likely fall into the open area that we will eventually fell in into. The trunk splits into two about 7 feet up and it's too far away to hit the house or any infrastructure in the direction of the lean of the main part of the tree.
This seems pretty unlikely (to my completely experienced eyes!), but the only way it could hit anything would be if a limb on the secondary/smaller part of the tree broke off about 25 feet up: the ends of those branches could possibly reach far enough to hit the infrastructure lines on the side of the tree away from the house. I can see that the bark is more compromised up there.
How likely is it that the tree would loose a limb from that high up at this stage of its death? Would it be safe to leave it standing another 8-9 months until next winter?
Thanks very much!!! I can post pictures later once the rain stops, if anyone is interested.
Click to expand.
..
Yes please post pics. Hard to say without actually being there to look at it in person, but it's probably ok until then.
Do you have a woodstove? Its great firewood.
Myself, I would take it down and get to cutting, splitting and stacking before it falls where I don't want it to.
Up to you though.
beastmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #8
The longer you wait more hazardous it'll be to climb, and the more it'll cost to remove. To long you'll need a crane. That'll really up the price. Of course that's assuming it's by a structure.
no tree to big
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #9
We have been turning down plenty of dead ash trees because people waited too long it's not worth killing one of our guys over a few dollars. Some are 2 years dead some are 3 or 5 or closer to 10. if we can get equipment in that's great but if it's a sketchy climber, have a nice day. I've had huge pieces fail doing crane removals, nothing major damaged so far but I'm talking 10" diameter stuff that seemed solid just snapping off because the insides were pure crap. If it's out in the open we just bomb everything.
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Cutting standing dead ash | Arborist, Chainsaw & Tree Work Forum
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- Thread starter Vibes
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Vibes
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I cut up/ down 6 standing dead ash trees yesterday. They were dead for going on 3 years now. They were from 5 to 10 inch diameter at the trunks. I was under the impression that I would be able to cut, split and burn these trees within days.
I was wrong. To my surpise the trunk wood was very wet and on most of them even most of the 1 1/2 inch sized limbs were sizzling were spitting when I burned the sticks in the burn barrel.
Ash must still draw moisture after EAB kills it. But there was no leaves on these trees for 2 years. They were in my yard so I kept an eye on them. Of course the small twigs shattered like glass when they fell making clean-up an all day event. I'll split it later today.
UpOnTheHill
ArboristSite Guru
- #2
Some of the ones I cut are ready to burn the same day and some I have to let season like a live tree. I think it all depends on the conditions, although I don't know what those conditions are. I can tell when splitting it which pile it goes into - this year's pile or next year's pile.
Vibes
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #3
UpOnTheHill said:
Some of the ones I cut are ready to burn the same day and some I have to let season like a live tree. I think it all depends on the conditions, although I don't know what those conditions are. I can tell when splitting it which pile it goes into - this year's pile or next year's pile.
Click to expand.
..
Same here. I've been cutting mostly ash for the last 3 years. Some of it isn't even worth cutting because most of the limbs are rotten. I would've let these trees stand till next year if I knew they weren't ready. Our summer was pretty damp around here but its been real dry for the last couple months.
These trees were at the top of my hill so its not like they were in an overly damp part of the property. You could tell that the roots are still drawing water for sure.
UpOnTheHill
ArboristSite Guru
- #4
The best ones I've found have fallen over and are supported by branches or other trees. These almost always seem to be primo depending on how long they've been there.
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #5
Vibes said:
I cut up/ down 6 standing dead ash trees yesterday. They were dead for going on 3 years now. They were from 5 to 10 inch diameter at the trunks. I was under the impression that I would be able to cut, split and burn these trees within days.
I was wrong. To my surpise the trunk wood was very wet and on most of them even most of the 1 1/2 inch sized limbs were sizzling were spitting when I burned the sticks in the burn barrel.
![]()
Ash must still draw moisture after EAB kills it. But there was no leaves on these trees for 2 years. They were in my yard so I kept an eye on them. Of course the small twigs shattered like glass when they fell making clean-up an all day event. I'll split it later today.
Click to expand...
I only do Ash and I have never had Ash that was real wet even cut in the mid summer. If it in the 20's one night in little air heat and sticked and stacked it be 14 to 15 percent next day I do a face cord every day.that's in my kiln
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
- #6
Yeah, it varies - I cut a little standing dead one last weekend, maybe 6 -7". I cut it up short for the little stove, and it's stacked on my porch. Some of the smaller pieces are in my stove now, burning great with no trace of hiss.
Other times it's either punky or still wet. Then again ours are dying from ash yellows, which is a slow wasting fungal disease, and some of them are pretty rotten before their fully dead. Others look totally dead but when you drop them you often find little twigs shooting leaves out the trunk way up top - not really dead yet.
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #7
stihlfanboy
ArboristSite Operative
- #8
Cut these 3 up in the rain the other day, so dead the only branches were 2 inchs think, rest broke off. The one was so gone it snaped on my face cut. Even after sitting in the rain there dry as a whistles when I brought them up today.
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #9
Lots of time when I cut Ash green I let them lay on the ground and let the leaves pull the water and sap out it don't take long either later
bbxlr8
ArboristSite Operative
- #10
Any dead ash I have cut has been good to go. Are you sure it was ash?
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #11
This is CRT I have never had Ash that wouldn't burn straight up. I been fooling with Ash for 40 years.that's not my wood a picture of some body else's. My firewood bundles come in color stretch wrap. I'm going to have to take a picture of mine
taskswap
ArboristSite Operative
- #12
I've heard it depends on the kind of Ash, too. I dunno. I've posted about this before - that old poem about ash green and ash dry a king to warm his slippers buy? Never worked for me. I used it in an emergency once and it sizzled like anything else green.
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #13
That doesn't look like our Ash then I see red tint in some of those chunks.
Vibes
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #14
Its ash. No doubt!!! I've been putting up tons of the stuff. Its all dead and been dead in this area. I'm guessing then that the stuff I cut up 3 years earlier may have been killed by the "Yellows".
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #15
The area I live in our Ash is snow white it has to rot before it changes dark our Ash is called white Ash. Our cherry is called Rock Cherry. When I get time I take picture of it as soon as I can
Iska3
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #16
I just took out a half cord of yellow ash yesterday and hope to take out three more cords by the weekend. I’ve never burned much ash because we’ve always had enough oak and elm. Now that I’m retired, I take out all the ash that I can get.
Our ash has been dying for the past 10 to 15 years now. The guy who owns the land next to us just pulled out some 20 cords of standing dead Ash and most of the trunks were still full of moisture until it was split and he soon found out that they dried up fast. Some of these trees were dead or dying for over 8 years but every now and then you might see a few leaves on one of the trees so someplace along the line the sap ring must be doing it’s job and the trunks will be full of moisture and the top have will be dry and hard like a baseball bat. I took these pictures of the dying ash along the road because I want to find the land owner (who lives in the city) in hope of them letting us cut these trees when the low land is dry like it is now.
It’s sad to see these trees go but like many of the other species it can only be used for firewood
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #17
After the sap is down I can cut a Ash chuck it split it down to wrist size put it in my kiln 24 hours later m/c down to below 8 to 10 on ends resplit a stick the middle will be under 15 percent that's our area Ash I got to looking there are about 25 different Ash's in the world.
Vibes
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #18
I know the ash is growing back around these parts but they are all twig size now. I'm wondering what Major League Baseball will do when they can't find ash for ball bats.
CRThomas
ArboristSite Guru
- #19
My customers are asking what I'm going to do when the ash is all gone. I tell them I'm 74 and the Ash will out last me. They use plastic or metal.
Iska3
Addicted to ArboristSite
- #20
Our area is mostly Yellow and Black Ash. I did get a few White Ash logs in a load of wood last year; I'd take a load of white Ash before a load of Red Oak. White Ash has to be one of the better woods. Dries fast, very tight rings and easy to split. Seems like it burns hotter also. I saved a few of the longer chunks for hammer handles. We don't see much in the way of White Ash around here; maybe that's why we have the term "Ash Swamps"..
CRThomas said:
The area I live in our Ash is snow white it has to rot before it changes dark our Ash is called white Ash.
Our cherry is called Rock Cherry. When I get time I take picture of it as soon as I can
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Professor about the life of lindens, the death of poplars and the dangers of light garlands - Moscow 24, 08/21/2017
August 21, 2017, 00:00
Ecology poplars, who can benefit from the destruction of the forests of the Moscow region from the bark beetle-typographer and what kind of trees are better to plant new microdistricts, which will be visited by settlers under the renovation program? Director of the agro-biotechnological department of RUDN University, Associate Professor Valentin Vvedensky told about this in an interview with m24. ru.
Photo: m24.ru/Yulia Ivanko
– Mature trees over three meters tall (large ones) are planted in the city center. Do you think they will be able to survive?
– It is difficult for trees to take root in the city. After several years of life, they begin to get sick and may die if they are not sent for rehabilitation back to the nursery - to fresh air to recuperate. And in their place, plant a healthy tree of the same breed from the nursery.
In the Soviet Union, a tree was planted in a gassed area, and after some time it was dug up and sent back to the nursery for rest
Trees in the aggressive environment of the city can be saved by constant rotation of plants after a few years. This technology was used in the Soviet Union: a large-sized plant was planted in a gassed urban area, and after some time it was dug up and sent back to the nursery for rest. In his place was planted one that had already undergone recovery. For example, this is how they kept blue spruces near the Kremlin. Unfortunately, we have lost this practice. But I hope that the experts will revive it.
– Can growing in tree tubs be natural?
- Of course, this is not normal for a tree, but it is acceptable. It is important to observe the size of the container and the tree itself. If the container is small, the plant may die. As a rule, not simple trees are grown in tubs, but exotic ones that cannot withstand our climate. Therefore, they need to be removed for the autumn-winter period in a winter garden or nursery, where they are restored and brought back to normal.
“Landing in frozen ground is a common technology”
– In the spring, many citizens were worried about the question: “Will the linden trees on Tverskaya Street, which were planted in December in frosty weather, have leaves to appear?” The trees turned green, however, belatedly, and on some branches the leaves did not appear. How will the lindens feel on a busy highway?
- Frozen ground planting is a common practice. In the spring, they did not immediately bloom, because they needed to adapt to new conditions. Some branches did not survive during the adaptation period. And that's okay.
Photo: TASS/Alexander Shcherbak
In nurseries, specialists prepare large-sized plants for planting: they cut, form the root system so that it is compact, do not forget the above-ground part. After planting, it is important that the trees continue to be looked after: dead or diseased branches are cut in time, fed, watered, and their health is monitored. Plants need to be sprayed from pests and diseases, to raise immunity. To preserve moisture in the root zone, gel additives can be added to the soil. In general, dendrologists now have a huge arsenal for caring for trees in urban areas so that they feel good and live long.
– Does it mean that the well-being of limes on Tverskaya and their life expectancy depend on how dendrologists look after them?
- Of course. Another thing, I often see trees in the yards and on the streets that are not properly cared for. The main mistake is that the branches are cut incorrectly, leaving a large stump. It begins to rot, fungi and bacteria penetrate here, then the core angers, and a hollow is formed. Eventually the tree breaks and falls.
“The life expectancy of poplar in urban conditions is not more than 70 years”
– Because of this, during the hurricane over Moscow on May 29, so many poplars fell down?
- Life expectancy of poplar in urban conditions is no more than 70 years. And the trees that grow in Moscow were planted more than half a century ago! Their lifespan is coming to an end. All poplars need to be removed, they are dangerous.
In courtyards, poplars that have grown higher than the roof of the seventh or ninth floor are cut in half. But this is a controversial practice: the trees are still old, the trunks are dry, so they fall in a squally wind.
Aftermath of a hurricane in May 2017. Photo: Portal of the Mayor and Government of Moscow
In general, in natural conditions, at 50-70 years old, a tree is considered young. After 100-120 years, this is already an age, especially for fast-growing trees. Trees have a shorter life in the city.
- The main array of trees, which are already 50-60-70 years old, grow in areas of five-story buildings. Surely they will be removed under the renovation program. What species of trees could be planted in the yards of new houses?
- Poplars are definitely not worth planting. I would advise planting ash. In my opinion, this tree feels good in the city, grows quickly and has a strong crown.
Gorgeous linden tree. It has decorative foliage, a beautiful silver-red crown. Of course, maple is an excellent breed for the city. Moreover, there are many species of maple, with different colors of foliage. Of the conifers, it is probably better to choose spruce or pine, but only of a small height.
I would not recommend arborvitae for planting. They don't feel good in the city. Still, this is not quite our tree, therefore, they require care, like shrubs: bird cherry, mountain ash, cherries. All shrubs need to be trimmed, and they are most often incorrectly trimmed or not trimmed at all.
Photo: m24.ru/Yulia Ivanko
- However, during flowering lindens are allergenic. They were even cut down in Moscow some time ago because of this. If they are planted in city blocks, will allergy sufferers suffer?
- Allergy is not my area of expertise. I will only pay attention to the fact that all plants bloom. The birch is the first to bloom, shoots with earrings even before the leaves bloom. Some allergic people react to its pollen, but this does not mean that all birch trees need to be cut down.
– Sometimes in the winter the wipers pour the reagents directly onto the lawn. How does this affect mail and plants?
- Reagents are mainly potassium or sodium salts, that is, almost the same fertilizers that we use when growing other crops. In small quantities, they are useful, but in those volumes in which they are poured onto the sidewalk or the roadway, and sometimes onto the lawn, they are dangerous for trees and soil.
Most chemicals are used in winter when the trees are dormant, but they remain in the soil and cause damage to the plants. Alkalis or acids can neutralize the action of salts.
“For trees, cleaning leaves is definitely not useful”
– Do you think it is necessary to clean fallen leaves under trees?
- Cleaning leaves is definitely not useful for trees. Fallen leaves retain the necessary moisture for the tree, both harmful and beneficial insects and bacteria live under them. In autumn, the tree takes all the important nutrients from the leaves: proteins and carbohydrates, thus only cellulose remains in the fallen leaf, which is processed by bacteria, forming deciduous soil that feeds the trees.
Photo: Portal of the Mayor and Government of Moscow
Harvesting the leaves leads to the fact that the natural conditions of the tree are violated. Therefore, I am a supporter of leaving foliage. However, fallen leaves knock out the lawn and do not allow lawn grass to grow normally.
Then the way out can be like this - to create deciduous soil artificially. To do this, you need to collect, compost, and then scatter. This will benefit both the lawn and the trees. But this procedure is time-consuming, expensive, so one could simply leave the foliage around the tree for nutrition.
Rules for harvesting foliage in Moscow
– In the city center, trees are often wrapped in garlands to create a festive atmosphere. How does illumination affect trees?
- In my opinion, the illumination does not cause much damage to the tree, provided that the bulbs do not get very hot and do not burn the bark. But, as a rule, cold LEDs are now used, so there are no problems.
“Illumination does not injure a tree much”
Trees are injured by another practice - tying the tops of seedlings into a knot. It is believed that this way the barrel will not go anywhere, it will stand stronger, but this is a big mistake. Over time, this node begins to choke the tree, the so-called nodules are formed, from which it ceases to grow and develop.
- The forests of the near Moscow region are dying from the bark beetle. Even seven or ten years ago, there was no such problem with the bark beetle-typographer. Why has the bark beetle become a real scourge for the forests near Moscow?
– The typographer has always been dangerous and relevant for Moscow and the Moscow region. But earlier, forests were cultivated from the air and from the ground, so there was no problem.
Forests near Moscow affected by the bark beetle. Photo: TASS/Igor Zotin
In recent years, processing has not been carried out. The fighters for ecology raised a wave of protests, and they also reduced the staff of forestries, there are no foresters and there is simply no one to work. Hence the huge problem, the forests around Moscow are dying by hectares and they are being cut down. I do not rule out that this is even beneficial to someone, because empty plots remain, they can be easily taken out of the forest fund and something built.
There are preparations that can be used to process forests from the printer, but the problem is still different, there are settlements around these forests, and according to modern laws, the processing of such areas is prohibited.